Jay Clouse Drops some Creator Science on Us for Episode 85

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Roberto Blake: Hey everybody.
This is Roberto Blake, and today

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I have the one and only Jay
Clouse here, here to talk about

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monetization, long form and
short form and all things

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creator economy.
Jay, welcome to the show, Jay

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Clouse: dude.
Roberto, thanks for having me.

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Yeah, Roberto Blake: no,
awesome.

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So we've known each other for a
while online.

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We've met in person a few times,
great conversations, but you are

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the man, but for the five people
living under a rock in my

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audience, tell them a little bit
about yourself.

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Give them your hero or villain
origin story.

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Well, it Jay Clouse: begins dark
and stormy night when a man and

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woman, I mean, my parents love
each other very much.

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So my name is Jay.
I'm the founder of creator

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science, and new thing I'm
playing with is I'm saying this

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is advanced creator education.
I Roberto Blake: love it.

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I love it.
There's a lot of beginner

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education.
So I love advanced creator

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education.
Yes, good standout, because Jay

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Clouse: I am really big on
analytics and data and making

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data driven decisions.
So really, creator science is

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saying my origin story is
someone who did not consider

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himself creative.
And the only way that I've been

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able to build the following, the
attention that I have is because

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I have been so deliberate in
experimenting, learning,

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innovating and just getting,
like, tiny increments better all

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the time, 1% Roberto Blake:
better every upload like we like

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to say, totally Yeah.
So no, that's great.

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Can you tell us a little bit
more about creator science and

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the lab and what you're doing,
and then I'm going to get into

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specifics around sure
monetization options for content

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creators, because you guys know
what I say.

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I'm here to help you improve
your reach, your reputation and

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your revenue, and I think Jay
can help us with all of those.

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But I really want to hone in on
the revenue piece.

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You know, we know that we all
need money, which makes world go

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round.
So tell us a little bit more

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about the business side of
creator science, if you don't

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mind, and the learner.
Jay Clouse: So I actually

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identify as a writer more than
anything else.

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Love it.
So creator science started as a

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newsletter and evolved into a
podcast, and it was only then

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that I realized, like, oh,
social media could actually be

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helpful, and maybe I should try
YouTube.

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So now we're like on all the
things, but it started from

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email and podcasting, which are
notoriously difficult platforms

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to grow.
And Roberto Blake: so you

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actually technically went hard
mode from beginning, because

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email writing extremely hard.
Podcasting without previous

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social media, and for
distribution, very hard Yes.

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Then YouTube, yes, the hardest
thing out of all content

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platforms.
And so hard mode in the

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beginning, but nightmare mode
from the beginning.

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And like, Jay Clouse: there's,
there's an argument to be made,

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a really good argument to be
made, actually, that like, you

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should do the hardest things
first.

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Yes, because if you do the
hardest things first, then like,

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you can really snowball your
efforts.

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So I think I lucked out in some
degrees, but I also definitely

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shot myself in the foot in a lot
of ways too.

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Roberto Blake: So Avalanche
method, but for creation instead

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of debt payoff.
Dave Ramsey, avalanche versus

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snowball.
Interesting, Jay Clouse:

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interesting.
We're Roberto Blake: doing

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snowball.
You went avalanche?

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Yes.
I think that for those of us who

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came from previous backgrounds
in the industry, like marketing,

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sales, business, we are kind of
more predisposed, I think, or

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someone with social proof.
Let's say you were a lawyer like

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Emily D baker or legal Eagle.
I think those people can take

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advantage of avalanche as
professionals over 30, yeah,

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versus like creators with no
resources or experience over 20s

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or teens, Snowball Method, yeah.
Jay Clouse: I think a lot of

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people that get into the Creator
space, you know you're inspired

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by the people whose content you
were consuming and learning

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from, right?
And so for me, it was a lot of

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email based creators, and,
course, creators.

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So like, I saw that as the path,
and it's definitely a path, and

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it's a good path, yes, but that
was the path I emulated.

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And a lot of the rhetoric in
that space is like social media,

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bad.
Social media rented land and

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like so true, but they were so
extreme in that rhetoric that I

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didn't touch it at all.
Oh, wow.

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And, you know, you come to
realize, like everything in

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moderation, everything has its
place.

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You just need to be you need to
know what something is good for

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to play the game correctly, but
in its proper place.

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Yes.
Right sizing.

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Yes, Roberto Blake: right size.
I always say, Make YouTube or

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make content creation right
size.

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In your life, a lot of people
that take over their life

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totally.
A lot of people are inspired by

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people who've let take over
their life, but they never hear

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the downsides totally.
But there's also sometimes too

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much doom and gloom, too much
negativity.

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In your case, the negativity
around social media hindered you

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in the fact that it was a missed
opportunity Jay Clouse: for yes

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correct, like I could have grown
so much faster if I would have

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embraced social media faster.
Because it turns out like the

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best way to grow your email list
your podcast is to grow on some

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other platform that rewards you
with free attention, Discovery

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platforms, as you would like to
say, right?

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Discovery platforms as I like to
say, and then redirect that

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attention towards the systems of
distribution that you Roberto

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Blake: own, the relationship
platforms that you would have.

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What often some people call it
relationship platforms, some

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people call it networking
platforms.

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Yes, I like the idea of
relationship platforms that

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feels better, that feels more
humanistic to me.

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Yes.
And.

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And for those watching, you
described, I think, examples of

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relationship platforms very
eloquently.

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Do you want to run us through
real quick?

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Jay Clouse: I think that there's
really only four relationship

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platforms, and you could make an
argument for YouTube and call it

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four and a half, maybe.
But I would say email,

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podcasting, SMS and private
communities.

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These are systems of
communication and distribution

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that you can control.
They're reliable means of

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communicating with the people
who have opted into that

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situation, right?
And Roberto Blake: you own the

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relationship itself, because you
have access to the people not

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controlled by an algorithm.
My biggest frustration, yes,

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right?
You have Jay Clouse: direct

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access to their contact
information.

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They control whether or not they
stop hearing from you, not a

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third party intermediate.
And we Roberto Blake: used to

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call this direct marketing back
in the day, and like, in the in

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the business world, like, you
know, things creators don't like

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like.
So let's, let's get into this,

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because this leads to the
monetization piece.

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So the reason that we want to do
this is, I call something very

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similar to, like, what you have,
I have, trust, sorry, traffic,

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trust transaction, traffic,
trust transaction, that's how I

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got three T's.
Where's yours?

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Is your attention?
Trust or no?

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Sorry, awareness.
Trust transaction, mine is.

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Traffic, trust transaction, I'm
gonna be honest.

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I kind of like yours better, but
mine has the alliteration, you

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Jay Clouse: have the acronym
that's a little bit better, but,

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yeah, same same idea, same idea.
Roberto Blake: The reason this

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becomes important is for creator
monetization.

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We need the traffic the
platforms provide, and they do

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give us an opportunity to build
trust.

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But I feel a lot of creators
fall down on the transaction

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part, because they're not
pursuing a transaction.

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They're just looking at Platform
revenue and sponsorship that

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doesn't require any commitment
from their audience in terms of

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a transaction.
Yep, and I feel that a lot of

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creators have been socialized in
that way by the Creator culture

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to not sell anything.
Oh, you're a scumbag, you're a

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scammer, you're a sellout.
Blah, blah, blah, how dare you

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ask me for money.
It's enough that I give you

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attention with my eyeballs don't
is ad revenue not enough for

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you?
Oh, why is everything sponsored?

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I think that transactions and
the audience voting with their

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dollars is actually really
important totally.

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And I think that there's a
deeper level of intimacy and a

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commitment between somebody that
you've exchanged value with at

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that level of a transaction.
That Jay Clouse: is the key like

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this is another difference in
the world that I came from,

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which is in the world of direct
marketing, of email courses,

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whatever like, the implicit
assumption is that you earn

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money from the audience.
It's a transaction.

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It's an exchange of value, as
you said, and so many people

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from the I would even say, just
like video side of the world,

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yes, they think the model is
traffic or attention monetized

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by a third party sponsor, yeah,
Roberto Blake: subsidized by

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advertisers, beholden is to some
degree to the corporations of

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the ad appliance and the
sponsorship that which, those

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are the same things that's
brands paying You instead of

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customers.
But then who are you beholding

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to them?
Yeah, Jay Clouse: exactly.

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You don't.
You don't take their money.

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They can't tell you what to do.
So with your audience, you, you

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need to be good at value
creation, which most creators

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are, I create value, but you
also need to be good at value

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capture.
Yes, and say, I'm creating value

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for you, and I'm going to
capture a small bit of that for

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myself, and we both come out
winners, Roberto Blake: yes,

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because then I can build more of
the thing that you like, and you

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also get to know that you
participated, and have the right

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to have influence over the way
in which I pursue doing it, Jay

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Clouse: even beyond that, like
if I told you I have a button

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you can press, and if you press
this button that I brought to

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you, you'll earn $5 how much
would you be willing to give me

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to push that button?
Like, like, you would probably

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be willing to give me up to
$4.99 because otherwise you

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wouldn't make anything right.
So, like, that's really easy to

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quantify in in money terms, but
the idea is, if you create net

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new value for somebody, you
should be able to capture some

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of that, and they're still
getting net new value, and so

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are you?
Well, Roberto Blake: that's

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that's why I like affiliate
marketing for creators.

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I like affiliate links.
Amazon influencer program is the

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obvious and easy one for to get
people get into.

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But I like the better ones,
because then you get more of

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that value.
Because I've always likened it

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to, if you're an employee,
imagine how different your life

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would be if you had captured 10%
of the value created for your

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employer, yeah, for every dollar
you created for your employer,

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you got a dime, okay?
For every $100 you got 10, you

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know, got 10 spot for you, yep.
So how much is your life

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different if you've made your
employer, um, millions of

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dollars, then in that case, you
earned hundreds of 1000s of

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dollars if you got something
like 10 to 30% that's life

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changing, if you think about it
from that perspective.

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Yeah.
So as a content creator, you are

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getting a fraction of the value
that you create for advertisers

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and sponsors on average, but
then they don't pursue things

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like affiliate marketing, and
then, well, what's better than

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10 or 30% of the value you
create?

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What about nine. 90% of the
value you create.

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Yeah, it's about selling your
own product or having your own

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private Jay Clouse: community.
Yeah, yeah.

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And like, you just gave the
sponsorship example, but a lot

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of times you're creating value
for your consumers, the people

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who are consuming your content.
Yeah?

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And like, there's no reason to
believe that you should not be

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able to have a positive
relationship with them while

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they are also paying you for
some of the value they have

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received.
And it's voluntary

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participation.
Voluntary participation.

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Voluntary participation,
obligated to buy anything

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correct, you know, but you're
just like putting the

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opportunity in, whether that's
in a community post or you do

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your own insert, you act as your
own sponsor, you do your own

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insert in your podcast or your
YouTube video or whatever.

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Yes, we're talking about
commerce.

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Like I have a lot of creators
who have, like, pricing anxiety.

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Who talk to me?
Talk to me more about that?

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Well, it's like they worry about
the dialog that will happen when

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they tell their audience they
have a thing and here's the

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price.
And I just try to make it like

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as stark of a comparison as
possible.

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I say you walk into a Starbucks
because you want a coffee.

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There's no barista like twisting
your arm and saying you need to

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get this coffee.
It's this is what we have.

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Do you want it?
And you say, Yes, I recognize

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that the value of having that
thing is worth more to me than

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the cash in my pocket right now.
And I transact.

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That is no different for us.
I Roberto Blake: tell creators,

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you're not saving your audience
any money by not selling

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something.
You're just deciding to opt out

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of that conversation altogether,
because somebody's going to get

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that money so it's not going to
sit in their pocket.

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It's going to go going to go to
a faceless corporation.

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It's got to go to Starbucks.
It's, you know, going to go to

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target, it's going to go to
someone.

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And all you're doing when you
don't sell to your audience is

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saying someone is more deserving
of your audience's dollars than

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you, and you're out.
And I'm Jay Clouse: reacting and

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00:11:35,864 --> 00:11:38,652
riffing a little bit here, but
what you're also saying is

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00:11:38,652 --> 00:11:42,316
implicitly that you don't value
your own contribution, and so

255
00:11:42,316 --> 00:11:44,560
they shouldn't value your
contribution either.

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00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:47,614
I think Roberto Blake: that it's
largely imposter syndrome, and I

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think that's fear based, yeah,
and I feel that creators don't

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feel they have permission to do
it, yeah, because they've been

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socialized by a culture largely
of and this is no offense they

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00:11:57,220 --> 00:11:59,980
might the largest content
creators have created that

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culture and created that idea in
a lot of their their audience,

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who looked up to them.
And you said it yourself, people

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become the facsimile to some
degree, or who they're inspired

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by, who their heroes are, who
they consumed.

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They want to be like them, yeah.
And therefore, to some degree,

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they don't feel they have
permission to do this if their

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hero didn't do Yeah.
Jay Clouse: Now the other thing

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that we should talk about is, if
you do want to sell direct to

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audience, yeah, I actually think
that the best time to do that is

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ASAP.
Like, I think a lot of the

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backlash, I think people wait
till they're a certain size to

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feel they've earned the
privilege to do that, right?

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But if you wait till you're a
certain size because and think

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you've earned the privilege,
what you're now introducing is a

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new expectation that people
might not have had.

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So also, Roberto Blake: if you
start from the beginning, you've

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socialized the expectation.
You've conditioned the

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00:12:47,590 --> 00:12:50,239
expectation, yes, of this is how
it you've already, Jay Clouse:

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like, set the terms of
relationship of saying, like,

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Hey, welcome in.
I make things for you.

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By the way, I sell things.
And so in the future, when you

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sell something, that's not a
surprise.

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00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:00,919
Roberto Blake: I get it.
There's no code switching.

284
00:13:00,919 --> 00:13:02,388
No, there's no code switching.
Nice.

285
00:13:02,388 --> 00:13:05,465
I Jay Clouse: think this is why
we saw like the exam, monetize

286
00:13:05,465 --> 00:13:07,555
from Day Zero.
Monetized from day zero.

287
00:13:07,555 --> 00:13:10,044
And it goes even beyond this,
like any precedent that you

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00:13:10,044 --> 00:13:13,680
expect to have in the future,
like I started a podcast four

289
00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:18,072
years ago now, and from day one,
we had ad units in there, even

290
00:13:18,072 --> 00:13:19,944
if they weren't paid for by
sponsors.

291
00:13:19,944 --> 00:13:22,646
It could have been just like me
saying, like, hey, subscribe to

292
00:13:22,646 --> 00:13:25,308
the newsletter.
But the idea being, you know

293
00:13:25,308 --> 00:13:28,616
that there are promotional
messages at the beginning, in

294
00:13:28,616 --> 00:13:33,380
the middle and in the and over
time, as you earn the ability to

295
00:13:33,380 --> 00:13:36,680
sell more paid units, like, it's
not a format shift, it's not a

296
00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:38,240
change Exactly.
Roberto Blake: There's no

297
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,290
interruption in service.
It's how it has always been.

298
00:13:40,290 --> 00:13:41,257
Yeah.
So there's continuity.

299
00:13:41,257 --> 00:13:43,042
I love this.
This makes sense.

300
00:13:43,042 --> 00:13:45,166
This is consistency from Day
Zero.

301
00:13:45,166 --> 00:13:47,878
I like this idea.
It also means for future

302
00:13:47,878 --> 00:13:51,154
proofing and Future Planning,
the units are there, the price

303
00:13:51,154 --> 00:13:52,879
increases with demand and
performance.

304
00:13:52,879 --> 00:13:56,828
Okay, so it always is there, and
you have predictable inventory,

305
00:13:56,828 --> 00:14:01,068
you've set your own destiny.
You have a plan in place, yes,

306
00:14:01,068 --> 00:14:04,055
for monetization, and we used to
just call this, oh, well, what's

307
00:14:04,055 --> 00:14:05,794
your business plan?
Totally, and creators, and

308
00:14:05,794 --> 00:14:08,100
creators, if I ask most
creators, well, what's your

309
00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:13,140
business model, their answer is
ad revenue, sponsorship, and I

310
00:14:13,140 --> 00:14:15,960
might get into merch, because
that is the pre approved in

311
00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,560
their mind, in the culture, this
is the pre approved model of how

312
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,115
you're allowed to make money,
and, Jay Clouse: you know, have

313
00:14:23,115 --> 00:14:25,275
appropriate expectations for how
much you're going to sell.

314
00:14:25,275 --> 00:14:29,102
But here's the other thing, like
easy thing that you can sell in

315
00:14:29,102 --> 00:14:31,250
the beginning, from day zero, is
access to you.

316
00:14:31,250 --> 00:14:33,160
Could be your time.
Could be 30 minutes with you,

317
00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:34,960
one on one.
And if people value that, they

318
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,348
will value that.
But here's the thing, by nature

319
00:14:37,348 --> 00:14:41,176
of having something for sale and
nobody knowing how much of it

320
00:14:41,176 --> 00:14:44,515
you're selling, people are bound
to assume you are selling some

321
00:14:44,515 --> 00:14:46,610
amount.
So even if, like, from day zero,

322
00:14:46,610 --> 00:14:49,620
you're saying, Hey, you can book
a one on one call with me, and

323
00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:52,540
you don't sell a single call for
the first six months, everyone

324
00:14:52,540 --> 00:14:55,759
who is aware of the fact that
you sell that call has probably

325
00:14:55,759 --> 00:14:57,782
assumed that you've sold some of
them.

326
00:14:57,782 --> 00:15:00,070
Yeah, and that's good.
That's like.

327
00:15:00,070 --> 00:15:03,384
Getting them to understand there
is value in your time, and

328
00:15:03,384 --> 00:15:05,880
eventually someone will book it.
And you've set that boundary,

329
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:07,856
you've set that boundary, set
that expectation, somebody will

330
00:15:07,856 --> 00:15:10,539
book it, and now you can have
even more confidence Roberto

331
00:15:10,539 --> 00:15:12,120
Blake: in marketing it.
It's also okay if no one

332
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,000
currently qualifies for the
boundaries that you've set.

333
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,860
Say more, because, you know,
well, think about it, if you

334
00:15:18,860 --> 00:15:22,062
lower the goal post, then you're
not getting what you actually

335
00:15:22,062 --> 00:15:23,324
wanted instead of your
boundaries.

336
00:15:23,324 --> 00:15:26,186
When you set your boundaries for
saying, This is what this is

337
00:15:26,186 --> 00:15:28,532
what it takes to have access to
my energy.

338
00:15:28,532 --> 00:15:32,227
This is what it takes to
overcome my other obligations.

339
00:15:32,227 --> 00:15:38,334
If you lower that bar just so
that you get a yes, you aren't

340
00:15:38,334 --> 00:15:41,475
even getting what you wanted to
say yes to yourself, correct

341
00:15:41,475 --> 00:15:45,475
your it's a yes for them, but
it's really deep down and no for

342
00:15:45,475 --> 00:15:48,854
you, yeah because you lowered
the bar of your requirements,

343
00:15:48,854 --> 00:15:53,245
your desires, your expectations.
So the fact that you moved that

344
00:15:53,245 --> 00:15:57,964
boundary means that it Yes, it
was it turned into a yes for

345
00:15:57,964 --> 00:16:01,635
them, but it's not really a less
a yes for you, you settled you

346
00:16:01,635 --> 00:16:05,802
moved the goal post, you lowered
the bar, you rejected your own

347
00:16:05,802 --> 00:16:08,760
standard in favor of theirs.
I Jay Clouse: had this

348
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,040
conversation a lot because
people who are developing

349
00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,548
memberships or courses or
whatever, they'll say, Hey, I'm

350
00:16:13,548 --> 00:16:15,570
getting feedback from my
audience that the price is too

351
00:16:15,570 --> 00:16:16,740
high.
Should I lower the price?

352
00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:20,160
And what you need to realize
with pricing is there are two

353
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,288
components to pricing.
There is the price and there is

354
00:16:23,288 --> 00:16:27,140
the perception of value that you
have created in the mind of the

355
00:16:27,140 --> 00:16:29,508
consumer.
When someone says your price is

356
00:16:29,508 --> 00:16:33,020
too high, what they're actually
saying is there is a

357
00:16:33,020 --> 00:16:35,690
misalignment between the price
you have named and my perception

358
00:16:35,690 --> 00:16:37,220
of value, of how much it's
worth.

359
00:16:37,220 --> 00:16:40,792
So you can lower the price to
meet their perception, or you

360
00:16:40,792 --> 00:16:43,360
can alter the perception.
You can also their perception

361
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,258
through your actions.
And for some people, so what?

362
00:16:46,258 --> 00:16:48,864
What you have to then consider,
what are the things they're

363
00:16:48,864 --> 00:16:52,660
using to evaluate and determine
the perceived value?

364
00:16:52,660 --> 00:16:55,840
Yep.
And so that may not always be a

365
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,368
function.
People think that that's a

366
00:16:57,368 --> 00:16:58,788
function of features and
benefits.

367
00:16:58,788 --> 00:17:02,292
I would argue that it often is
about the perception of status.

368
00:17:02,292 --> 00:17:04,079
Could be the perception of
status.

369
00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:07,602
It could be the way that you
literally frame package the

370
00:17:07,602 --> 00:17:11,094
value itself, like actually,
when you talk about features and

371
00:17:11,094 --> 00:17:13,040
benefits, you're usually
undervaluing the thing.

372
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,900
What you actually want to be
talking about is benefits and

373
00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:16,980
outcomes.
Correct?

374
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:18,306
Roberto Blake: I agree with
that.

375
00:17:18,306 --> 00:17:20,950
Here's where I'll go on the
status thing, because, again,

376
00:17:20,950 --> 00:17:24,704
there's such thing as the
prestige or premium of a brand,

377
00:17:24,704 --> 00:17:27,041
but also the association with
that thing.

378
00:17:27,041 --> 00:17:29,840
A primary example would be in
the Creator space.

379
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,540
There are creators, and one of
the reasons some of them will

380
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,540
actually lower their prices on
the negotiation of brand deals

381
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,040
is because the perception of
what it might look like to be

382
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,600
associated with that brand and
to be a brand ambassador or

383
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,720
featured creator of that
company, that perception of

384
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,020
prestige and status is enough
for a creator to lower their

385
00:17:50,020 --> 00:17:53,422
requirements and standards.
Oh, I would normally charge 5000

386
00:17:53,422 --> 00:17:57,760
for this, but to work with you,
if you need me to what's in the

387
00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:59,512
budget, I'll what's in the
budget.

388
00:17:59,512 --> 00:18:02,454
I'll do it and that and that.
I don't necessarily have a

389
00:18:02,454 --> 00:18:05,424
problem with that, per se, but I
just wanted to throw that out

390
00:18:05,424 --> 00:18:07,422
there, the fact that somebody's
requirements might change.

391
00:18:07,422 --> 00:18:10,660
Yeah, if there is something that
they value more than money,

392
00:18:10,660 --> 00:18:13,816
which is to your point, if they
value this thing more than

393
00:18:13,816 --> 00:18:16,496
money, and it could be status,
or it could be an outcome, yep,

394
00:18:16,496 --> 00:18:19,188
if they value that thing more
than money, could be access,

395
00:18:19,188 --> 00:18:22,134
yeah, could be a network.
Could be the association, if

396
00:18:22,134 --> 00:18:25,600
they value something more than
money, and you know what that

397
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,420
thing is?
That's the thing to offer.

398
00:18:27,420 --> 00:18:29,900
Yeah, Jay Clouse: people value
different things.

399
00:18:29,900 --> 00:18:33,479
So if they're saying your price
is too high, what they're saying

400
00:18:33,479 --> 00:18:37,248
is my perception of my values
and what I think I'll get from

401
00:18:37,248 --> 00:18:39,738
this does not match that price.
And it could be saying like,

402
00:18:39,738 --> 00:18:42,486
Well, do you know that we are
this brand that you want to work

403
00:18:42,486 --> 00:18:43,390
with?
Do you know that?

404
00:18:43,390 --> 00:18:44,920
Or do you know that we have
these results?

405
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,120
Yeah, these results.
Do you know that it's like the

406
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:49,768
difference?
A lot of times people,

407
00:18:49,768 --> 00:18:53,080
especially in the course creator
realm, they'll be like, this is

408
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,408
a six week live course, and
like, that's how they'll frame

409
00:18:56,408 --> 00:18:57,820
it.
It's like what sounds like work

410
00:18:57,820 --> 00:18:59,980
actually, that doesn't sound
that's hard for me to value.

411
00:18:59,980 --> 00:19:02,460
Like you're asking me to value
spending time on something,

412
00:19:02,460 --> 00:19:05,040
whereas if you say like this
gets you this outcome in six

413
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,995
weeks.
Now I'm valuing this as a new

414
00:19:07,995 --> 00:19:12,325
version of me, a possible future
in a short period of time.

415
00:19:12,325 --> 00:19:15,395
I value it differently or
Roberto Blake: again, the reason

416
00:19:15,395 --> 00:19:19,299
I might want that live cohort
versus a DIY course is I might

417
00:19:19,299 --> 00:19:22,394
want more nurturing.
I might want the access,

418
00:19:22,394 --> 00:19:25,725
support, the accountability,
even, or a time constraint,

419
00:19:25,725 --> 00:19:29,276
because what if I'm the kind of
person that I'll do a DIY, but

420
00:19:29,276 --> 00:19:32,155
I'll spin my wheels and not
execute, but if I'm in a cohort,

421
00:19:32,155 --> 00:19:34,160
there's assignments, there's a
timetable, there's

422
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,560
accountability, I have to
produce something and show it to

423
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,060
the group and be audited on it
and have peer review or

424
00:19:40,060 --> 00:19:42,112
evaluation.
Well, now, okay, hey, present

425
00:19:42,112 --> 00:19:45,904
your project to the class.
Like, that's a different thing

426
00:19:45,904 --> 00:19:50,080
than just turning in an
assignment or not even having

427
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,978
that option.
Yeah, so there's for, I think

428
00:19:52,978 --> 00:19:55,596
that with cohorts in particular,
and you know this, like, you've

429
00:19:55,596 --> 00:19:59,220
done it a lot, like, I think the
relationship value in that.

430
00:19:59,220 --> 00:20:02,040
And.
The Accountability aspect of it.

431
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,279
That's the, like, a key selling
point of this versus that, Jay

432
00:20:06,279 --> 00:20:08,984
Clouse: yeah.
And on the flip side, I

433
00:20:08,984 --> 00:20:12,054
recommend doing live experiences
to creators all the time,

434
00:20:12,054 --> 00:20:16,708
because you have, there's more
margin for error in that.

435
00:20:16,708 --> 00:20:20,682
Like, if you're delivering the
education and you recognize, oh,

436
00:20:20,682 --> 00:20:24,500
I think I lost this person.
Yeah, you see it, and you can

437
00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:27,365
intervene, and you can still,
like, personally, help them get

438
00:20:27,365 --> 00:20:29,912
to the outcome, whereas in a
self paced version, you're

439
00:20:29,912 --> 00:20:32,330
probably just gonna tune out and
now that I didn't get anything

440
00:20:32,330 --> 00:20:33,962
out of that.
Course, do Roberto Blake: you

441
00:20:33,962 --> 00:20:36,772
find that also that those live
experiences, I'm glad you're

442
00:20:36,772 --> 00:20:39,095
saying it's live experiences,
and one on one coaching?

443
00:20:39,095 --> 00:20:41,260
Do you find that helps for
better product development,

444
00:20:41,260 --> 00:20:44,830
because you've experienced a
variety of problems and a

445
00:20:44,830 --> 00:20:49,588
variety of needs that help
inform the more broad thing that

446
00:20:49,588 --> 00:20:51,036
you're making.
Generally, Jay Clouse: I would

447
00:20:51,036 --> 00:20:54,490
just say it's a tighter feedback
loop, because you get to apply

448
00:20:54,490 --> 00:20:59,020
your your method to a real
situation, and you get to see

449
00:20:59,020 --> 00:21:01,916
what happens from there, because
you're watching in real time as

450
00:21:01,916 --> 00:21:04,347
they apply it.
So like you see body language,

451
00:21:04,347 --> 00:21:07,190
you hear objections, you hear
questions that are asked.

452
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:09,780
You see where people's eyes
light up or their eyes glaze

453
00:21:09,780 --> 00:21:11,880
over.
So like the feedback loop of

454
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,734
learning, am I explaining this
well?

455
00:21:13,734 --> 00:21:16,423
Am I explaining it in the right
order?

456
00:21:16,423 --> 00:21:18,734
Am I explaining it
comprehensively?

457
00:21:18,734 --> 00:21:22,280
You learn all that by delivering
these things live and seeing

458
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,000
somebody react.
And once you start seeing a

459
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,306
pattern of like, okay, every
time I deliver this live in this

460
00:21:26,306 --> 00:21:28,700
order, in this way, it just
works, that's when you can start

461
00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:31,118
saying, let me produce it.
And that's Roberto Blake: not

462
00:21:31,118 --> 00:21:35,525
abstract in the way that maybe
even a survey, a survey has a

463
00:21:35,525 --> 00:21:39,167
limited scope of questions,
versus this feedback loop has

464
00:21:39,167 --> 00:21:42,724
more variability, in the sense
that people aren't limited in

465
00:21:42,724 --> 00:21:46,116
the type of feedback they can
give or to a specific question

466
00:21:46,116 --> 00:21:48,700
set.
So it also takes some bias that

467
00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:51,436
your own exit survey might have
if you sell a course.

468
00:21:51,436 --> 00:21:53,350
So I think that's that's good
feedback and value.

469
00:21:53,350 --> 00:21:56,041
But let me ask you a question.
You've coached a lot of

470
00:21:56,041 --> 00:21:58,048
different creators.
We've talked a lot about

471
00:21:58,048 --> 00:22:01,414
monetization models that I think
lend themselves better to

472
00:22:01,414 --> 00:22:05,682
thought leaders, per se, versus
influencers who might be in the

473
00:22:05,682 --> 00:22:07,865
entertainment sphere.
Because, like, one of my things

474
00:22:07,865 --> 00:22:11,095
in the dichotomy of like, okay,
well, what is a creator is,

475
00:22:11,095 --> 00:22:13,920
well, you could have, well,
there's really three paths, but

476
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,580
most people focus on two, the
thought leader path, which is

477
00:22:17,580 --> 00:22:20,960
professionals that you know,
Andrew Huberman, for example,

478
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,110
James clear, obviously thought
leaders.

479
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:26,294
We would be thought leaders.
But then you have influencers,

480
00:22:26,294 --> 00:22:28,837
which would be the entertainment
base, which is your like, your

481
00:22:28,837 --> 00:22:32,105
Mr. Beast, your Logan Paul's,
what have you.

482
00:22:32,105 --> 00:22:37,024
But then I would say there is a
third path that might be more

483
00:22:37,024 --> 00:22:39,902
abstract than both that well,
there are people who are

484
00:22:39,902 --> 00:22:43,426
artists, who then just happen to
monetize what they're doing as

485
00:22:43,426 --> 00:22:46,720
creators, per se, yeah, but that
matter, the expression aspect

486
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:52,342
would matter more to them,
versus, I would say that, um,

487
00:22:52,342 --> 00:22:54,640
the influencer optimizes
probably around.

488
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,260
They want the validation, they
want, the wreath, they want, the

489
00:22:57,260 --> 00:22:59,480
big numbers.
And then I would argue, to some

490
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,913
degree, maybe the business is a
secondary like priority to some

491
00:23:02,913 --> 00:23:05,139
degree.
I think that thought leaders,

492
00:23:05,139 --> 00:23:08,364
not all, but most probably, come
from a professional realm where

493
00:23:08,364 --> 00:23:12,720
they are intrinsically thinking
equally about reach and revenue.

494
00:23:13,020 --> 00:23:16,920
I think artists would like
either, but they just really

495
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,890
want their thing to exist.
Yeah, if we will look at

496
00:23:19,890 --> 00:23:22,008
influencers who are
entertainers, what would you

497
00:23:22,008 --> 00:23:24,500
say, and what monetization
advice would you offer to them?

498
00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:27,740
And what business model do you
think works for those Well, I'm

499
00:23:27,740 --> 00:23:31,100
Jay Clouse: not gonna say don't
do advertising or brand deals

500
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,100
like, yeah, of course it works.
There's a lot of precedent for

501
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:37,655
it, but it's also like, in some
ways unreliable.

502
00:23:37,655 --> 00:23:41,410
So I'm always trying to say,
what is the direct form of

503
00:23:41,410 --> 00:23:44,032
monetization, I can find that's
just a pure transaction between

504
00:23:44,032 --> 00:23:47,040
me and my audience, right?
And it is tougher in the

505
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,252
entertainment realm than the
education realm, yes, because

506
00:23:49,252 --> 00:23:52,740
you're probably not going to do
a course or some sort of like

507
00:23:52,740 --> 00:23:57,974
info product, but I am inspired
by people who do some form of

508
00:23:57,974 --> 00:24:01,533
physical product, and like you
have the extreme examples like

509
00:24:01,533 --> 00:24:03,460
feastables and joy ride or
whatever, right?

510
00:24:03,460 --> 00:24:05,592
And, yeah, I think there's a
really interesting thing

511
00:24:05,592 --> 00:24:09,180
happening right now that we saw
with like Marques Brownlee,

512
00:24:09,180 --> 00:24:14,416
where, like, you have brands
that don't have a face and faces

513
00:24:14,416 --> 00:24:18,564
who don't have a product, and
like, they meet, and that's,

514
00:24:18,564 --> 00:24:22,250
like, really cool, yeah.
And Roberto Blake: we saw this

515
00:24:22,250 --> 00:24:23,460
before that, even with Peter
McKinnon.

516
00:24:23,460 --> 00:24:26,420
So we have Marcus Brownlee,
Peter McKinnon, with these kind

517
00:24:26,420 --> 00:24:29,660
of partnerships.
I just seen with blue, Condor or

518
00:24:29,660 --> 00:24:32,200
Condor blue.
Sorry, Condor blue.

519
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,950
So I love this idea.
I think it becomes to some,

520
00:24:36,950 --> 00:24:41,348
would you agree that this could
be extension of what starts with

521
00:24:41,348 --> 00:24:46,470
a traditional brand deal
relationship, Marquez in

522
00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:52,068
particular, and Justine as well.
So I feel like that becomes a

523
00:24:52,068 --> 00:24:55,668
natural progression or extension
of something creators are

524
00:24:55,668 --> 00:24:58,660
familiar with.
Here's another form of brand

525
00:24:58,660 --> 00:25:02,090
partnership that.
Extends outside of just triple

526
00:25:02,090 --> 00:25:04,852
sponsored content.
Yeah, to product partnership,

527
00:25:04,852 --> 00:25:06,900
yeah.
I Jay Clouse: think, I think

528
00:25:06,900 --> 00:25:10,440
creators can kind of approach
brand deals the same way that

529
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,005
Amazon approaches Amazon
originals.

530
00:25:12,005 --> 00:25:15,644
You know, where it's like, I
have a sense that my audience

531
00:25:15,644 --> 00:25:18,699
cares about this type of
product, let me partner with a

532
00:25:18,699 --> 00:25:21,102
brand that provides it.
And if that proves to be true,

533
00:25:21,102 --> 00:25:24,120
consider developing your own.
Or, you know, go to them and

534
00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:27,450
say, I think I might develop my
own, or cut me in, like, let's

535
00:25:27,450 --> 00:25:29,640
be partners on this.
Yeah, because, like, doing

536
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,072
manufacturing and producing a
product that's a huge, that's a

537
00:25:32,072 --> 00:25:34,220
big undertake, creators
typically don't have

538
00:25:34,220 --> 00:25:36,680
specialization or expertise.
It's, like, inaccessible to

539
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,380
somebody who hasn't done it
before.

540
00:25:38,380 --> 00:25:40,580
So it's easier to work with
somebody who already has a

541
00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:42,740
systems built, and you have,
like, a percentage you're on the

542
00:25:42,740 --> 00:25:43,865
board.
Percentage, you're on the board,

543
00:25:43,865 --> 00:25:46,660
you're on the cap table.
That's like ideal, and I think

544
00:25:46,660 --> 00:25:49,620
you can wade into that with
affiliates or brand deals to

545
00:25:49,620 --> 00:25:51,439
start.
So I think that's like a good

546
00:25:51,439 --> 00:25:53,942
place to start.
But I also think that most

547
00:25:53,942 --> 00:25:56,470
entertainment based creators
have an opportunity for

548
00:25:56,470 --> 00:25:58,390
memberships.
I wanted that Roberto Blake: for

549
00:25:58,390 --> 00:25:59,580
sure.
I would agree with that the

550
00:25:59,580 --> 00:26:01,504
success of Patreon is a
platform.

551
00:26:01,504 --> 00:26:04,828
Jack Conte, great entrepreneur,
yeah, Jack, if you're watching,

552
00:26:04,828 --> 00:26:08,871
yeah, we'd love to have you on,
but I believe you spoke with

553
00:26:08,871 --> 00:26:12,789
Jack Conte and other folks in
the development realm around

554
00:26:12,789 --> 00:26:15,498
memberships.
What would your advice be to

555
00:26:15,498 --> 00:26:18,420
entertainers?
And then we could circle back to

556
00:26:18,420 --> 00:26:21,800
thought leaders on approaching
memberships, because a lot of

557
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,860
entertainers don't get like the
inside baseball on this, yeah,

558
00:26:24,860 --> 00:26:28,040
Jay Clouse: I mean memberships,
you have to think about what is

559
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,782
my audience value?
How do I form this so that it

560
00:26:30,782 --> 00:26:34,662
doesn't take over my life?
And I would put memberships on a

561
00:26:34,662 --> 00:26:38,408
spectrum between, is this
premium content focused, or is

562
00:26:38,408 --> 00:26:41,064
this like relationship focused,
so access?

563
00:26:41,064 --> 00:26:44,281
Well, I would even say
relationships between members.

564
00:26:44,281 --> 00:26:48,060
So community, yes, like, do you
want to be more peer to peer and

565
00:26:48,060 --> 00:26:51,336
the value that you're promising,
or do you want to be more

566
00:26:51,336 --> 00:26:53,338
premium content?
And most memberships will offer

567
00:26:53,338 --> 00:26:56,956
a blend of both, but you're
going to want to go one side or

568
00:26:56,956 --> 00:26:59,790
the other.
Primarily interesting when you

569
00:26:59,790 --> 00:27:02,270
do peer to peer, and you're
like, This is a community for

570
00:27:02,270 --> 00:27:05,030
this type of person, and we make
the experience really good for

571
00:27:05,030 --> 00:27:06,410
people who care about this
thing.

572
00:27:06,410 --> 00:27:08,772
You can tend to charge higher
prices for that, because that's

573
00:27:08,772 --> 00:27:11,940
a harder thing to pull off.
I'd agree retention is higher

574
00:27:11,940 --> 00:27:14,298
more difficult to market,
though, Roberto Blake: community

575
00:27:14,298 --> 00:27:17,080
is more unique than any product
offer, yes, yes.

576
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,108
But Jay Clouse: like, in
opposition to SAS.

577
00:27:21,108 --> 00:27:25,080
Like, yeah, to continue to
create value in a community, you

578
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,054
have to, like, just foster the
conditions.

579
00:27:27,054 --> 00:27:29,732
It's You're never done.
You're never like, Okay, we did

580
00:27:29,732 --> 00:27:31,074
it.
Like the community exists and

581
00:27:31,074 --> 00:27:32,720
it's great.
Like, you have to continue.

582
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,660
It's like, it's like pool
chemistry, like you can get the

583
00:27:35,660 --> 00:27:38,420
community can be off balance,
and things can go bad.

584
00:27:38,420 --> 00:27:40,400
There's no like, I made it.
It just works.

585
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,624
You have to continue to foster
whereas, whereas with SAS,

586
00:27:43,624 --> 00:27:47,845
there's a there's a baseline,
baseline utility, a baseline

587
00:27:47,845 --> 00:27:50,308
utility that's pretty static,
that's pretty static that, like

588
00:27:50,308 --> 00:27:52,765
it will continue to solve that
problem in that way.

589
00:27:52,765 --> 00:27:56,032
But community, if it's peer to
peer, especially like you have

590
00:27:56,032 --> 00:27:58,644
to continue to help me form
relationships and make this a

591
00:27:58,644 --> 00:28:00,604
place that I want to spend my
Roberto Blake: time.

592
00:28:00,604 --> 00:28:02,538
And it has to be the culture has
to be maintained.

593
00:28:02,538 --> 00:28:04,976
It has to be curated.
It's Jay Clouse: ultimately out

594
00:28:04,976 --> 00:28:07,035
of your hands.
You can't, you can't control

595
00:28:07,035 --> 00:28:10,500
fully if people are
participating, if relationships

596
00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:13,260
are being made, if you do
premium content, you can control

597
00:28:13,260 --> 00:28:15,600
the fact that you're going to
make more premium content,

598
00:28:15,660 --> 00:28:17,760
right?
So that's a little bit safer.

599
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,620
Roberto Blake: So you're
choosing essentially between

600
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,140
content as a service or
community as a service?

601
00:28:22,140 --> 00:28:23,548
Yes, yes.
Jay Clouse: And a membership,

602
00:28:23,548 --> 00:28:25,736
that's generally what you're
trying to do, interesting.

603
00:28:25,736 --> 00:28:28,850
So I think most entertainment
based creators, especially, are

604
00:28:28,850 --> 00:28:32,201
more on the side of content,
because content is like

605
00:28:32,201 --> 00:28:34,280
basically creating extended
access to you.

606
00:28:34,340 --> 00:28:37,640
Yes, sometimes you will do live
sessions, and that's special and

607
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:39,029
unique.
Content based memberships tend

608
00:28:39,029 --> 00:28:41,344
to be lower priced.
You're going for scale?

609
00:28:41,344 --> 00:28:43,866
Yep, they tend to be higher
churn, yes.

610
00:28:43,866 --> 00:28:48,382
But you know, if you go that
way, like there is more control,

611
00:28:48,382 --> 00:28:52,699
and I think most creators can
design a membership where there

612
00:28:52,699 --> 00:28:56,680
is extended access to you, more
content from you, but it's

613
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,664
controlled, and how much time
you're putting into it, yes.

614
00:28:59,664 --> 00:29:01,708
And so it's Roberto Blake: a
scale.

615
00:29:01,708 --> 00:29:05,268
It's a more scalable and easier
to sustain model, yes, but it

616
00:29:05,268 --> 00:29:10,404
also, again, requires it to be a
lower premium, yes, for access.

617
00:29:10,404 --> 00:29:13,584
So it's like volume of
transactions versus value

618
00:29:13,584 --> 00:29:15,768
transactions.
And so that's a volume based

619
00:29:15,768 --> 00:29:17,628
model.
And then the value based model

620
00:29:17,628 --> 00:29:19,180
is community.
Yes, that's Jay Clouse: that's a

621
00:29:19,180 --> 00:29:22,172
good way to put it into so you
have to decide where you want to

622
00:29:22,172 --> 00:29:26,025
fall on that framework, and
generally, like a lot of people

623
00:29:26,025 --> 00:29:29,940
will run the math and realize,
Okay, I'm gonna charge $5 a

624
00:29:29,940 --> 00:29:32,356
month my Patreon.
I have a good audience, but, you

625
00:29:32,356 --> 00:29:34,744
know, we've got 100 people, and
that's a great outcome, but

626
00:29:34,744 --> 00:29:37,559
that's $500 per month, and I'm
putting all this time into

627
00:29:37,559 --> 00:29:39,620
creating new stuff, and it just
doesn't make sense.

628
00:29:39,620 --> 00:29:42,460
It's like it doesn't feel
sustainable, because it doesn't

629
00:29:42,460 --> 00:29:44,860
feel like it's rewarding you for
the amount of effort that's

630
00:29:44,860 --> 00:29:46,432
required.
So when you introduce a

631
00:29:46,432 --> 00:29:50,788
membership, is a key question to
make sure that it is financially

632
00:29:50,788 --> 00:29:54,290
incentivizing for you to do the
work necessary to make it good

633
00:29:54,290 --> 00:29:57,280
enough that people stick around.
Roberto Blake: No, that makes

634
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,722
perfect sense, because the churn
rate is the thing that would be

635
00:29:59,722 --> 00:30:01,302
up with.
And stand for those not familiar

636
00:30:01,302 --> 00:30:03,688
with churn rate, we're talking
about, are you losing more

637
00:30:03,688 --> 00:30:06,399
members than you're gaining
month over month?

638
00:30:06,399 --> 00:30:08,691
Yeah.
And is that net positive?

639
00:30:08,691 --> 00:30:09,444
Yeah.
So.

640
00:30:09,444 --> 00:30:12,820
And are you maintaining the
numbers and retention of what

641
00:30:12,820 --> 00:30:15,060
like you have, as far as your
community?

642
00:30:15,180 --> 00:30:17,968
So that's, I think that's very
interesting.

643
00:30:17,968 --> 00:30:22,838
Let's get into a little bit of
that around education based

644
00:30:22,838 --> 00:30:25,112
content.
One of the pushbacks on

645
00:30:25,112 --> 00:30:29,060
education based content, whether
it's courses or even cohorts or

646
00:30:29,060 --> 00:30:32,498
communities, is there's this
belief that everything that you

647
00:30:32,498 --> 00:30:35,580
ever need is already accessible.
Why would you pay for it?

648
00:30:35,580 --> 00:30:37,880
What are your thoughts on that
argument around this?

649
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,668
Yeah, Jay Clouse: I mean, I
would also say that you could,

650
00:30:41,668 --> 00:30:44,755
you could change your own
toilet, or you could hire a

651
00:30:44,755 --> 00:30:49,012
plumber.
You know, we value time and

652
00:30:49,012 --> 00:30:54,495
efficiency as a species.
We just do, yeah, so, like

653
00:30:54,495 --> 00:30:58,180
courses are about time and
efficiency if you would like to

654
00:30:58,180 --> 00:31:02,460
learn something better faster
than trying to do it on your

655
00:31:02,460 --> 00:31:04,105
own.
If you have to curate the

656
00:31:04,105 --> 00:31:06,766
information, to curate it, not
just curate it, but also order

657
00:31:06,766 --> 00:31:09,000
it.
Yeah, Roberto Blake: so I'd have

658
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,580
to curate it, create continuity.
I'd have to consolidate it.

659
00:31:11,580 --> 00:31:15,240
I'd have to that's a lot of
effort before I even consume the

660
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:16,920
thing that I want and execute
on.

661
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:18,865
It's Jay Clouse: a lot of effort
to understand, like, what should

662
00:31:18,865 --> 00:31:20,876
I pay attention to?
How do I curate it?

663
00:31:20,876 --> 00:31:22,577
What order should I consume it
in?

664
00:31:22,577 --> 00:31:25,434
And like, what do I lend
credibility to so yes, you could

665
00:31:25,434 --> 00:31:26,524
do all of that.
You can do it.

666
00:31:26,524 --> 00:31:28,332
How Roberto Blake: much of that
do I have to do to distill it

667
00:31:28,332 --> 00:31:30,620
down these things?
And how would I know that I've

668
00:31:30,620 --> 00:31:32,912
done that effectively Jay
Clouse: totally and why would

669
00:31:32,912 --> 00:31:35,670
you believe that you can do it
as effectively as somebody who's

670
00:31:35,670 --> 00:31:38,600
been doing it for years and has
already immersed it like the

671
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,316
best course I've ever taken, by
far, Roberto Blake: and had

672
00:31:41,316 --> 00:31:43,540
other people vet it by hack,
then other people have bought

673
00:31:43,540 --> 00:31:45,355
it.
Yes, best course Jay Clouse: I

674
00:31:45,355 --> 00:31:47,560
take it by far is Seth godins
marketing seminar.

675
00:31:47,620 --> 00:31:54,040
Okay, hour for our incredibly
value, and this is this man's 30

676
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,974
years of marketing experience
distilled into one course.

677
00:31:56,974 --> 00:32:00,600
Like you can have Seth godins 30
years of marketing experience

678
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,300
distilled into one chorus, yes,
you could probably go through

679
00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:06,300
his entire archive of everything
he's ever done, but some of

680
00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:08,580
that's going to be dated, some
of that he's changed his own

681
00:32:08,580 --> 00:32:10,810
mind on.
So it's just, yes, you can do it

682
00:32:10,810 --> 00:32:13,446
for free, but it's inefficient.
At some point you need to value

683
00:32:13,446 --> 00:32:15,340
your own time.
Roberto Blake: I think that time

684
00:32:15,340 --> 00:32:19,029
is the most irreplaceable thing.
I think there's a over I think

685
00:32:19,029 --> 00:32:22,520
people I'm speaking for myself
when I say this.

686
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,324
I've had various incarnations of
a unhealthy relationship with

687
00:32:26,324 --> 00:32:30,408
money that comes from scarcity,
bad experiences growing up

688
00:32:30,408 --> 00:32:34,395
without money, being an adult
that didn't have money, all

689
00:32:34,395 --> 00:32:37,736
kinds of debt.
It creates these money traumas

690
00:32:37,736 --> 00:32:42,142
that I think then skew the lens
of how we perceive money, and we

691
00:32:42,142 --> 00:32:44,539
think that, Oh, if we spend this
money, this money will never

692
00:32:44,539 --> 00:32:46,371
come again.
But inevitably, if we work hard,

693
00:32:46,371 --> 00:32:48,664
it does, if we're consistent, it
does.

694
00:32:48,664 --> 00:32:53,360
If no tragedy happens, it does.
And often we've spent more money

695
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,068
on more useless or worthless
things than the things that are

696
00:32:57,068 --> 00:32:59,560
in personal development.
I feel like books are always a

697
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,799
good investment of money.
I feel like a gym membership

698
00:33:01,799 --> 00:33:04,560
tends to be a good investment of
money and everything like, I

699
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,128
mean, your evidence right here,
Jay Clouse: I've put a lot of

700
00:33:07,128 --> 00:33:08,040
money into the home gym.
Yeah.

701
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,160
Roberto Blake: So the I feel
like personal development, which

702
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,160
gets a bad rap, self
improvement, I think career

703
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,500
development.
I think if you were trying to do

704
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:18,969
anything like, for example,
outside of content creation,

705
00:33:18,969 --> 00:33:22,110
people understand the investment
of career development, and how

706
00:33:22,110 --> 00:33:25,178
many 1000s of 1000s of dollars.
But I think in our industry, a

707
00:33:25,178 --> 00:33:28,700
lot of people take for granted
this idea, because in their

708
00:33:28,700 --> 00:33:32,012
mind, there's this perception
behind the scenes that this is

709
00:33:32,012 --> 00:33:34,200
very luck based, which I would
disagree with.

710
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,730
I think that most things that
are broadcast as luck are

711
00:33:37,730 --> 00:33:39,428
undisclosed privilege,
undisclosed nepotism,

712
00:33:39,428 --> 00:33:42,376
undisclosed resources.
I don't think enough credit goes

713
00:33:42,376 --> 00:33:45,940
to teams that are behind people,
tools that are behind people,

714
00:33:45,940 --> 00:33:49,668
and to opportunities that were
not given to everybody a lot of

715
00:33:49,668 --> 00:33:51,650
times.
And Jay Clouse: if you pawn

716
00:33:51,650 --> 00:33:54,520
things off on luck, that's a
very disempowering belief.

717
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,460
I agree.
Because if you just believe

718
00:33:57,460 --> 00:33:59,482
things are luck, then like,
what?

719
00:33:59,482 --> 00:34:01,830
What reason is there to do
anything?

720
00:34:01,830 --> 00:34:03,558
I Roberto Blake: take it to a
weird extreme.

721
00:34:03,558 --> 00:34:05,550
When someone says they're lucky,
I don't think they're being

722
00:34:05,550 --> 00:34:07,600
humble.
I think they're trying to say

723
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,085
that God loves them more than
you.

724
00:34:10,085 --> 00:34:13,686
Yeah, that's a mic drop, right?
But, but thing is, think about

725
00:34:13,686 --> 00:34:16,750
it, if it's not in your control,
then it's in the control of

726
00:34:16,750 --> 00:34:18,702
something bigger and more
powerful, and it's picking

727
00:34:18,702 --> 00:34:20,748
winners and losers.
Yeah, I would never want to

728
00:34:20,748 --> 00:34:22,790
believe that message.
I Jay Clouse: mean, like, chance

729
00:34:22,790 --> 00:34:25,826
and probabilities are a thing,
yeah, and sometimes those play

730
00:34:25,826 --> 00:34:28,895
in your favor.
But there are other ways to

731
00:34:28,895 --> 00:34:32,300
like, improve your odds.
You can stack the deck, yeah,

732
00:34:32,300 --> 00:34:34,460
your favor.
There's a lot you can do to

733
00:34:34,460 --> 00:34:37,219
like, be more probabilistic to
get the outcome that you want.

734
00:34:37,219 --> 00:34:39,440
Roberto Blake: Yes, I think that
the rarity of outcomes that

735
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,987
people look at also is a rarity
of inputs.

736
00:34:41,987 --> 00:34:44,512
And the thing that also
convinced me this, and I'd love

737
00:34:44,512 --> 00:34:47,418
your thoughts on this as we
start to, you know, wind things

738
00:34:47,418 --> 00:34:51,416
down, but like, if you look at
AI, for example, its outputs are

739
00:34:51,416 --> 00:34:54,940
only as good as its inputs.
You cannot be somebody who's

740
00:34:54,940 --> 00:34:58,075
like, you know, if someone's
already smart, this thing will

741
00:34:58,075 --> 00:35:00,042
have exponentially more valuable
to them.

742
00:35:00,042 --> 00:35:04,356
That if they're below average,
and I think that a lot of things

743
00:35:04,356 --> 00:35:09,711
are the difference between a lot
of undisclosed effort that is

744
00:35:09,711 --> 00:35:13,452
above average or outlier effort,
meaning that, I think that it's

745
00:35:13,452 --> 00:35:18,081
under reported how many hours
people put in doing something to

746
00:35:18,081 --> 00:35:21,632
get like most people do not
understand that a lot of the

747
00:35:21,632 --> 00:35:24,302
successful content creators that
they see, it's their third or

748
00:35:24,302 --> 00:35:26,780
fifth YouTube channel, yeah, and
they've undisclosed to you.

749
00:35:26,780 --> 00:35:29,195
You saw them and ran into them
when they're 18.

750
00:35:29,195 --> 00:35:32,000
They've been trying to since
they were 12, and they failed

751
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:32,960
their way up.
Yeah.

752
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,360
Jay Clouse: And even while they
were failing, they were learning

753
00:35:35,420 --> 00:35:39,620
things that allowed them to do
things in smaller amounts of

754
00:35:39,620 --> 00:35:41,746
time, and like time savings
compound.

755
00:35:41,746 --> 00:35:44,074
They Roberto Blake: do they but
that's with everything.

756
00:35:44,074 --> 00:35:46,284
That's with athleticism.
And no one talks like, think, if

757
00:35:46,284 --> 00:35:48,640
you think about it, just
realistically, the more you work

758
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,940
out, the more you do an
exercise, the more you do a

759
00:35:50,940 --> 00:35:51,988
martial art, the effort
compounds.

760
00:35:51,988 --> 00:35:55,968
And the thing becomes easier due
to muscle gain, muscle memory,

761
00:35:55,968 --> 00:35:59,377
repetition, the fact that you're
disciplined in your mind, of

762
00:35:59,377 --> 00:36:01,342
like, okay, this isn't so bad,
becomes a thing.

763
00:36:01,342 --> 00:36:03,887
A lot of people don't.
If I put it into real terms for

764
00:36:03,887 --> 00:36:07,140
content creators, Mr. Beast made
460 videos to get to 10,000

765
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,715
subscribers.
Do you realize how abnormal it

766
00:36:09,715 --> 00:36:13,290
is to keep going?
If you have, if you make 460

767
00:36:13,290 --> 00:36:16,440
videos on YouTube, try your
little heart out, and you don't

768
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,047
even get to 10,000 subscribers,
you realize how many people

769
00:36:19,047 --> 00:36:20,888
would give up?
Jay Clouse: Oh yeah.

770
00:36:20,888 --> 00:36:23,980
Before they hit 400 videos, I
would have given up at video six

771
00:36:23,980 --> 00:36:25,610
they.
Roberto Blake: A lot of them

772
00:36:25,610 --> 00:36:29,268
give up, most people, even if
they, most people give up at

773
00:36:29,268 --> 00:36:34,450
video 100 if they do not hit the
outlier thing, if they don't hit

774
00:36:34,450 --> 00:36:37,340
10,000 subscribers by video 100
they give up.

775
00:36:37,340 --> 00:36:39,946
And the reason I know this is
because that has been audited.

776
00:36:39,946 --> 00:36:42,760
90% of creators never hit 10,000
subscribers.

777
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,780
About roughly, depending on what
you want measure is active

778
00:36:46,780 --> 00:36:48,940
channels.
You could argue between three

779
00:36:48,940 --> 00:36:52,388
and 6% monetize, because,
according to CEO Neo Mohan, 3

780
00:36:52,388 --> 00:36:55,640
million globally in the partner
program, there's over 100

781
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,630
million channels on YouTube
globally.

782
00:36:57,630 --> 00:37:01,860
Social Blade only tracks about
69 million of them.

783
00:37:01,860 --> 00:37:05,160
So people look at that as the
active channel number, okay, if

784
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,280
I go with the conservative
version, 6% of all people in the

785
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,860
world who try to do YouTube get
monetized, and get the partner

786
00:37:10,860 --> 00:37:12,660
program and get, you know, the
watch hours and the

787
00:37:12,660 --> 00:37:13,992
monetization.
And that's after they lowered

788
00:37:13,992 --> 00:37:18,120
the bar, by the way, in the to
500 subscribers and 3000 watch

789
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,864
hours.
Okay, so it's between three and

790
00:37:20,864 --> 00:37:23,360
6% like, Okay, that's pretty
devastating.

791
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,106
That sounds bleak.
That sounds like, yeah, you're

792
00:37:25,106 --> 00:37:27,535
saying it's a lucky break, but
it's not.

793
00:37:27,535 --> 00:37:31,060
It's that most people don't
qualify because they quit too

794
00:37:31,060 --> 00:37:32,592
soon.
Yeah, Jay Clouse: you gotta

795
00:37:32,592 --> 00:37:37,484
think, am I going to put in more
effort than 94 to 97% of people?

796
00:37:37,484 --> 00:37:39,883
And actually, that's very
achievable.

797
00:37:39,883 --> 00:37:42,940
Most people do not put in
extraordinary effort.

798
00:37:43,060 --> 00:37:45,685
They don't, yeah, I Roberto
Blake: think that's been

799
00:37:45,685 --> 00:37:47,995
provably true.
I mean, it sounds harsh, or it

800
00:37:47,995 --> 00:37:50,636
sounds elitist to say, but it's,
no, it's provably true, yeah,

801
00:37:50,636 --> 00:37:53,795
because we can measure it.
Yeah, Jay Clouse: the bar is,

802
00:37:53,795 --> 00:37:57,210
like, low for trying, but like,
the the wind does not come from

803
00:37:57,210 --> 00:37:59,756
simply the activity.
You can't simply upload a video

804
00:37:59,756 --> 00:38:03,450
and think, Well, if I do that
100 times, I get the outcome.

805
00:38:03,450 --> 00:38:06,180
You have to like work to make
every video better.

806
00:38:06,180 --> 00:38:08,880
Roberto Blake: Of improving,
it's the improvement by at least

807
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,660
1% every time one new thing
learned every time it's the

808
00:38:12,660 --> 00:38:15,262
natural progression.
And that's why I liken it to

809
00:38:15,262 --> 00:38:20,052
things like athleticism or
artwork or just even any form of

810
00:38:20,052 --> 00:38:22,396
personal development self
improvement that you do.

811
00:38:22,396 --> 00:38:24,776
It's improvement that you do,
it's the compounding of the

812
00:38:24,776 --> 00:38:28,114
effort with the intent of
improving and becoming more

813
00:38:28,114 --> 00:38:31,180
effective, more efficient.
It's becoming a better editor, a

814
00:38:31,180 --> 00:38:34,020
faster editor, a better script
writer, a better on camera.

815
00:38:34,020 --> 00:38:36,398
I sucked on camera like even
learning to perform, even

816
00:38:36,398 --> 00:38:38,231
learning how to speak.
I sucked on camera.

817
00:38:38,231 --> 00:38:41,341
I sucked at public speaking.
I improved with effort over a

818
00:38:41,341 --> 00:38:44,260
duration of time.
Jay Clouse: Yep, and that

819
00:38:44,260 --> 00:38:46,540
improvement is a decision.
Roberto Blake: It that is a

820
00:38:46,540 --> 00:38:48,850
choice that you that is the
controllable variable out of the

821
00:38:48,850 --> 00:38:51,520
things you were talking about,
because you went to controllable

822
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,450
variables, like how you can
control, for example, your the

823
00:38:54,450 --> 00:38:58,240
price that you set, you can
control that you can control

824
00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:01,750
certain levers in the perception
of your value by, you know,

825
00:39:01,750 --> 00:39:04,488
improving on a thing, and
understand it's a choice to

826
00:39:04,488 --> 00:39:06,988
understand what your audience
values and why and so on and so

827
00:39:06,988 --> 00:39:08,932
forth.
So no, I would agree with you on

828
00:39:08,932 --> 00:39:11,420
that.
So Jay, where can everyone find

829
00:39:11,420 --> 00:39:14,520
you and learn more about your
content and resources?

830
00:39:14,940 --> 00:39:16,020
Jay Clouse: Right here on
YouTube.

831
00:39:16,020 --> 00:39:17,580
Search.
J Klaus, the channel is called

832
00:39:17,580 --> 00:39:19,634
Creator science.
The handle is at creator

833
00:39:19,634 --> 00:39:23,774
science, y t because someone got
to add creator science before

834
00:39:23,774 --> 00:39:26,094
me.
Otherwise, you know, search for

835
00:39:26,094 --> 00:39:28,240
creator science wherever you
like to consume your things.

836
00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:31,160
Do Roberto Blake: you have some
final thoughts or something you

837
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,080
want to talk about today before
we wrap up?

838
00:39:33,500 --> 00:39:36,620
Jay Clouse: Yeah, if I were to
ask everybody watching us to do

839
00:39:37,100 --> 00:39:40,280
one thing, well, maybe two
things, it would be to like and

840
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:45,160
subscribe.
Nice you.